Curse

Chthon · Jun 04, 2010, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

But yeah, of course Chaos Storm is good for Tank n' Spank type setups, the same can be said for any AoE DoT out there.

1. The occurrence of adjacent foes is not limited to tank-n-spank setups. Even without any aggro tactics whatsoever you're going to get balls of adjacent foes pretty regularly. A small bit of positioning on a balanced team will get you even more.

2. Most AoEDoT are not very good for tank-n-spank, or anything else, because they are armor-sensitive elemental damage. You pretty much need to coat them with EBSoHonor to get decent damage.

Quote:

Saying it's good for energy degen is pretty laughable considering this is PvE and even IF energy denial was viable, it'd simply be easier to kill.

1. It's an AoE drain. Draining your target is usually pointless, but draining the off foes (and damaging them) while you're killing your primary target is worthwhile. It's a side effect, to be sure, but it's far from useless.

2. High survivability bosses, particularly special bosses with 1000's of hp, cannot be killed quickly. Draining them out is worthwhile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

I was wanting to avoid anything AP related, but that's not that bad of a build.

I think you'll like the next iteration even better.

The Josip · Jun 04, 2010, 10:20 AM // 10:20

And the award goes to..

AP EVAS spammer build!

---

In 99% of PvE, AS EVAS spammer is still the best build. Yes, you can have many ok mesmer builds now, thanks to the update. But all that interrupting with Frustration, PI, etc, is simply inferior by a noticeable margin. Not by 5%, but more. The best hero build for EVAS is not Spiritway, as some would have you wrongly believe. It's Discordway, regardless of what some may say. Spiritway is great when you want to move very, very safely, or minions don't really work - but elsewhere I've never found anything faster than EVAS+Discord for a mesmer.

The rate at which targets die is incredible.

So, having played extensively with Ineptitude, Energy Drain, tried Frustration interrupting.. and then getting back to AP - this is my verdict at this moment. AP EVAS spam means instant slaughter. Other builds are fun for variety.

ps: This was without putting new Chaos Storm in the skillbar, which I'll try later. What worries me is that considering how fast things die, I might not be able to find time to even cast this.

FoxBat · Jun 04, 2010, 02:32 PM // 14:32

A spike build can out-spike a pressure build. News at 8.

I.E. who cares how fast single targets die. Look at how long it takes for the group to collapse. That was the whole point of evaluating mesmer AoEs. Maybe AP-whatever is still top dog DPS, but discord sure as hell isn't.

Lanier · Jun 04, 2010, 02:41 PM // 14:41

I really wish Anet would start nerfing the Overpowered skills... They have done a good job with buffs in my opinion but at this point, skills like AP and many of the eotn PvE skills severely need nerfs. Its pretty sad that even after all of the buffs, AP + PvE skills still is considered "the best".

Lopezus · Jun 04, 2010, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Its pretty sad that even after all of the buffs, AP + PvE skills still is considered "the best".

Well, imo, it's not even pve skills, AP+full mesmer skill bar still is the best, reacharge and energy return can't be matched, outstanding utility and flexibility.

The Josip · Jun 04, 2010, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

I.E. who cares how fast single targets die. Look at how long it takes for the group to collapse. That was the whole point of evaluating mesmer AoEs. Maybe AP-whatever is still top dog DPS, but discord sure as hell isn't.

Look, I couldn't care less what you think.

AP EVAS spam in a Discord team is the fastest killer and mover on the map (with no consumables). Which means if I want to clear an area fastest, this will work the best.

In rare situations Spiritway will be better, but it will be also slower.

So, go ahead, use all the outstanding mesmer AoE's. Panic your enemies all you want. Energy drain them. Use whatever super secret hero builds you have - I don't care. I say super secret because if there were better ones than Discord you would name them instead of just "Discord isn't good" like the other half of this forum. But when you ask them what's good then no one replies. LOL. I use Chaos Storm now with AP. That's enough AoE for me.

Go ahead. Not that I care. I've done my testing and concluded EVAS spam + Discordway still rules. There are areas where this doesn't work because you can't build minion army, or in time - but who cares. There I'll take something else, and, I'll probably still be playing AP EVAS spam myself then, just heroes will be different.

ps: Oh I forgot, buffed Unnatural Signet which I used even before, now has nice AoE damage as well.

Quail Stomp · Jun 05, 2010, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Thats cool if you want to stick to the EVAS spam, im just happy that we got updated skills to screw around with. I think there maybe be a few more builds to surface after some more testing. AP+whatever type builds with discord makes the game too easy for me so i try to avoid it or i will get bored very quick.

The Josip · Jun 05, 2010, 11:04 AM // 11:04

I agree, which is why I don't play same build all the time. I'm having quite a lot of fun in RA with energy drain build.

But this thread was really about what the changes brought to Mesmer in terms of power, and, in terms of PuGing. I was in DoA yesterday and guess what - no PuG team needs a mesmer. It's all "DwG lfg". Speaking of DwG and Discord, funny how mesmers have skill recharge reduction, and other classes just take DwG or Discord. And then there's super-awesome AP.

So far in this thread I've seen these arguments:

1. "I'm having a lot of fun using build X"
2. "4 second knockdown is amazing"

But strictly evaluating power, the proper argument is: "I cleaned this area in xy seconds, with this build, while it took me longer with AP Discordway / other."

Now, I clean areas the fastest with EVAS spam + Discord. Does anyone clear a typical (non-high end) PvE area faster with some other build?

And as for high-end areas, what mesmer builds do you find most successful there, and where?

Lanier · Jun 05, 2010, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

I cleaned this area in xy seconds

I think the thing is that you have a different definition of the power of a build than some others (myself included). I can't speak for anyone else but my definition of the power of a build has nothing to do with how fast it kills so long as it kills in a "reasonable" (an unspecified amount defined by myself) amount of time.

Therefore, I think the reason why some are arguing with you is that although AP + discord may be the most powerful build according to your definition of "the power of a build", it may not be the most powerful build according to someone elses definition of "the power of a build", whatever their definition may be.

The Josip · Jun 05, 2010, 08:12 PM // 20:12

If there is no definition of powerful then powerful does not have any meaning, and there's no difference between week, mediocre or powerful if there's no criteria.

This is also not a semantics thread.

If you want to suggest some other definition of powerful, you're welcome.

Lanier · Jun 05, 2010, 08:21 PM // 20:21

im not "suggesting" anything and I am fully aware that this is not a semantics thread. I am merely saying that a possible reason for why some disagree with you is because they disagree with your definition of how powerful a build is. I used my definition to provide an example that not everyone thinks about a builds power in the same way you do in order to illustrate this possible reason why some disagree.

The Josip · Jun 05, 2010, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Well this thread doesn't deal with mental dysfunctions as I said. I'm sure that there are those who think that the most powerful mesmer build is the one that can casts skills the fastest (in which case skillbar would be full of shouts and 1/4 skills), and those who think that the most powerful mesmer build is the one with the most beautiful skill icons, etc etc. This thread isn't therapeutic, however, which I hope would be clear from my first post.

Now, if you think my definition is wrong for whatever reason, I welcome your correction, so go ahead and state it.

Lopezus · Jun 05, 2010, 08:50 PM // 20:50

I must say Mind Wrack+ESurge+AEESurge+CoP+UnnaturalSignet deals very nice damage indeed.

Quail Stomp · Jun 05, 2010, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Think im going to mess around with a mantra of recovery build this weekend. With it stacking with the fast casting change it could be fun. Just got to go test some skills to go with it.

Lanier · Jun 05, 2010, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Now, if you think my definition is wrong for whatever reason, I welcome your correction, so go ahead and state it.

You can stop attacking me... I never, ever said your definition (which, what I gather, is that whichever build is the fastest is the best) is wrong. That doesn't mean others can't or wont have different definitions.

draxynnic · Jun 06, 2010, 08:40 AM // 08:40

In my experience, pretty much all H/Hing against HM Mantle...

...on the whole, AP still wins. It's had a bit of a tap with the nerf stick with the Fast Casting changes, but it has other options in other skills now - there are benefits now to doing it with a Mesmer apart from FC and the ability to use Arcane Echo. Haven't used Chaos Storm with it, but Unnatural Signet and, if spirits are being used, Spiritual Pain are both worthy contenders, with the advantage of having shortish recharges and low costs in the event of an AP fail.

I have been playing around with Illusion builds using Clumsiness and Wandering Eye against melee targets and using casting speed slowdowns and interrupts against casters. It's effective enough to be another option, and there are probably situations where it wins out against the AP builds, but AP seems to be the more reliable on the whole.

Haven't tried canned mandragor builds post-buff. I probably should. I tried a Domination-based get-WW-off build, but wasn't particularly impressed with the result.

Generally, I've found that mesmer energy management, on the whole, continues to be weak - it can take two or three skills, possibly including an elite, to keep a bar going. Maybe it's the bars I'm using, but it strikes me as one of the weaknesses that remains. The buff to Arcane Conundrum certainly doesn’t seem to make Dom/Illus mesmers viable in my opinion, although it can help out an Illus/Insp Mesmer a bit.

Regarding Panic, I'd agree with earlier observations - if you're facing balled casters, it can be a quite effective disruption tool (I had Gwen use it while doing a Kunvie run while I used AP EVAS myself, and while it's not a run I generally have problems with, it did seem to be easier). Against more balanced groups like the White Mantle, however, it tends not to do much.

One thing I’ve generally thought is that if I was on ANet’s skill balance team, one of my objectives would be to engineer a situation where AP could be killed without killing the Mesmer along with it. I’m not sure if they’re there yet, but they certainly seem to be a lot closer.

The Josip · Jun 06, 2010, 09:56 AM // 09:56

I've tried Chaos Storm with AP build, and I like it because AP is usually single target skill. However, if foes are really balled up for whatever reason, you can arcane echo CStorm instead, and Unnatural also deals AoE now. So technically, you have situation B solution now, and pretty good one at that.

Also VQed Raisu and enemies used to ball up more often than usual. I played with Ineptitude, and that build does great damage vs mobs. It would beat AP if balling was consistent. As for energy you mentioned, I use only Drain Delusions with Ineptitude build and have no problems with energy, but energy has been covered in the other thread.

Anyway, both AP and Ineptitude builds are essentially spam builds. What I'm trying to point out here is that any non-spam build will have ideal damage spread over both active and inactive seconds, so it lowers theoretical damage output. That isn't seen on the paper, but it exists in practice.

Another thing with non-damage mesmer builds and skills is the fact that if you H/H you're better off going damage. I'll cover this in the new thread.

Lopezus · Jun 06, 2010, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Thing is mesmer AP+Evas spam build was actually nerfed with FC change, loosing it's edge over other professions.

The Josip · Jun 06, 2010, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

Thing is mesmer AP+Evas spam build was actually nerfed with FC change, loosing it's edge over other professions.

Yes, but you don't understand. ANet buffed IW so that you can have a mesmer build as strong as AP one, or even stronger. Thus no need for AP anymore.

draxynnic · Jun 06, 2010, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

Thing is mesmer AP+Evas spam build was actually nerfed with FC change, loosing it's edge over other professions.

Yes and no. The FC nerf hurt...a little. I don't think anyone seriously considered that a big advantage, though - the big advantage was being able to Arcane Echo the assassins (and, pre-nerf, Cry of Pain). However, post-update the list of options for the two "optional" slots remaining (after the core, profession-independant AP build is added to Auspicious Incantation and Arcane Echo) is now a lot scarier, and as Josip appears to be finding with Chaos Storm (I haven't tried it on an AP bar yet myself) not necessarily filler.

I think I can guess the gist of what Josip is going to say about H/Hing already - that since the AI will generally follow your targets, you want to be concentrating on killing a target rather than supporting or attempting to disrupt an "off" target.

Incidentally, I tried the ESurge-based chaos nuking concept, aided a little by the Battle Standard of Wisdom. I was...quite impressed.